Transcript: How to Write a Persuasive AEC Proposal Cover Letter

Lindsay: Well, hello, Lindsay Diven, here, your marketing copilots. And today we’re talking about probably the most important part of your proposal. The cover letters. It is your first impression. It must set the stage for your proposal because many times the challenge of receiving 30 submittals and needing to shortlist just for the selection committee members may not even read the entire proposal.

Just the cover letter, just the cover letter may get you to the shortlist. It must be a compelling letter and today’s guest Peter Kienle has a framework to ensure a strong cover letter. So, without further ado, here’s our interview.

Lindsay: Well, hey there today I have Peter Kienle. He is of Kienle communications, who is a marketing and business development and advisory consultant to the AEC industry. Many of you probably already know him. Pete, thanks for being on today. This has been a long time coming, so I’m glad we finally got connected. And why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about who you are, your career path, and how you help firms today?

Pete: Good morning. thanks, everybody for, coming on. I, have a long history, but I’ll shorten it way down. I was in college and with the MBA school and then I was, uh, there is the mental health department in Ohio and they were interviewing for interviews for construction, and I said, went to the interview my boss interviewed me and at the end of the interview, I said, now, why would you even choose me? Stupid thing to say in an interview, but I’ve said that. And he said because we need people, not architects, engineers, but people who can keep to a budget, get things done on time. I said, okay, fine. so, what I did was I did that. So, I learned from the ground up, I was an owner’s rep. I interviewed architects and engineers for projects. I manage projects from their initial planning through construction completion. I even signed completion certificates for millions of dollars. Still scares me to know. so, I did that. And then after a while, I decided, hey, I want to get out of this and do something else. So, I ended up, sending in a letter to many firms and got one, and then from there, it was all up. Uh, I started with one firm and another, and the thing about me coming in like that is that I had the background that very few marketing people had.

Pete: it also found that at that time there were very few MBAs in the business. So, people always ask me. And the thing is when I went to an owner or something, you know, I got more credibility than somebody who is a salesman or a marketer. So anyway, I did that. And then, I got into SMPS, and I became the president of my local chapter. And then, I did well, I was very involved in the CPSM program, got it up and running, and then became national president. And so, since that time I’ve done hundreds of programs all over the country. Probably a lot of you have seen them. You’re still on this looking for me to talk.

Pete: So anyway, I have done lots of proposals and I know from the firms I’ve been with and in my consulting business, they’re usually very bad and I don’t think people get training on how to do them and they do them in a rush at the end. So anyway, I wanted to share this with you. And as a fellow, part of my responsibility is to share and mentor my information it’s only because I want you all to be better at what you do.

Lindsay: I love it. I love it. I did not know that you started as an owner’s rep, so I’m already learning from you

Pete: Okay.

Lindsay: So, thank you. So, let’s get right into it. So. We’re talking about proposals today, but we’re talking about a specific part of a proposal. So, we’re not going to talk about all proposals, but I’ve asked you today to talk about something I think we’re both passionate about. Cover letters, cover letters of proposals, and why are these cover letters so important for AEC proposals?

Pete: You know, when I first started in this business and I also went to other firms that looked at them, I found that many firms just take their cover letter from Alaska proposal, change a few things and send it in. Oh my God, it’s terrible. They’re terrible. So, the cover letter is often the prospect’s first impression of your firm, even if they know you and some may not, the cover letters should give them more information on your firm concerning the project. Now, something that you may not know, a psychologist says that your first impression becomes the impression that your brain holds onto your brain doesn’t want to work any harder than it needs to.

Pete: It wants to conserve energy. In other words, you hear something the first time, it makes an impression on you. It is cataloged as a good impression in your brain or a bad impression. If it is a good impression, everything you hear after that it’s absorbed in the brain and goes to strengthens the good impression. To save energy the brain tends to repel anything bad after that holds onto the good impression. That is why the first impression is so important. It is very difficult to change that first impression. I think you all know when you hear something very good about somebody and someone else says something bad. Well, I think they do good. I know they do good, but that’s where it all comes from.

Lindsay: Um,

Pete: one of the things I really hate to tell marketing coordinators and proposal writers is, believe it or not, many proposal reviewers do not read a proposal cover to cover and evaluate a firm and even halfway through.

Pete: Maybe 15 hours of your time in writing it. And someone may only spend five minutes reading it and making a decision. When I tell a marketing coordinator that you should see her mouth drop or his mouth drop, I would say her because usually, it’s women. Here’s often and whatever viewer situation is for this example, let’s say there are five people reviewing the proposals. Who and how to review a proposal is all across the map. On proposals, I know of, there was one manager who asked his secretary, okay, his secretary to read the proposals for a project and shortlist. Oh, just can’t hardly believe that, but it’s true.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: now, you know, a committee normally would have 10 to 15 people and sometimes they have all 15 review it. But usually, it’s less than that. Usually, three or four and often facility staffers. Uh, you’re given 30 proposals submitted today. You need to send back in five working days, the names of four firms. if each proposal is a hundred pages. There are 3000 pages of material.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: Most reviewers will tell you they have no time to do this. Did you ever hear a, a, design person say I don’t have time. I mean, that’s a standard thing. We are always here. If they do not have to fill out a rating sheet, it takes less time on every proposal. You can come to a pretty quick decision, especially if they come away with like the good or bad first impression of your firm, just by reading the cover letter.

Pete: If each reviewer reviewed every proposal from first to the last page, still scanning it much of the time and highlighting and taking notes. My guess is they would invest at least 10 hours of time. Let’s say the only took 10 minutes. They’d still invest five hours.

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. Who has five hours in a day to review proposals?

Pete: Exactly it, especially, these people, they don’t want to work hard most

Lindsay: is usually, probably they’re asked on top their daily tasks.

Pete: Yeah, it’s not something that happens every day. I had one county manager who felt it was his duty to review each proposal in detail for shortlisting proposals. He would take home all the proposals and review them and shortlist, usually on the weekends, as he did not have the 10 hours needed in his schedule. I respected that man so much.

Lindsay: yeah,

Pete: Now, the second thing I want to talk about is the reviewer must be enticed to read the entire proposal. At least in a lot more detail than just the cover letter. So, the cover letter needs to include critical information on your firm that addresses the current service and challenges of the reader. Also, the committee is made up of individuals who may or may not have the same concerns and challenges, for that reason you need to really research each person on the committee. Now, again, that’s a lot of time and really need to take that time.

Lindsay: That’s part of your capture planning. Pre-positioning.

Pete: Absolutely. And you know why the thing here is that you know, we often don’t know how our proposals were. I mean, people want to know the, you know, the outcome of the interview and do the review, but proposals in my district got on the shortlist. You might write the worst proposal on a cover letter got on the shortlist because they knew you. also, uh, contact after the RFP is issued, you may be eliminated from further consideration. For example, an engineer may want to be assured those systems will be designed as wanted and dependable for many years. But the owner’s manager who has to work with the PM wants to have a very responsive PM that sticks to the cost schedule of the project. I think Lindsay, you probably know there are many senior marketers who say that the PM is the most important part, the most important person in our proposal and at the interviews, we really pay homage to them.

Pete: To focus on a cover letter, I addressed the three most important aspects of the project. You’ve probably heard this before, Lindsay, but I just want to push it up

Lindsay: Yeah, please.

Pete: Yeah, many staffers on your team may tell you that is ridiculous. Every proposal item your firm could be asked to be added and more, the better, even if it’s 10 or 15. Senior marketers called us to throw mud against the wall and see what sticks, a scattered gun approach. It does not work. There is a communication Axiom that says you have a better chance of communicating. If you boil it down to three items, called the magic of threes. And this was discovered in the Middle Ages, and you can go on the internet and read about it because people can understand, remember and digest three items. A number like 10 or 15 items, clouds, the issue. And reviewers do not want to work that hard.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: I mean, I think you’ve got to remember that I was on the other side of the ball and, you know, and as you say, it’s extra, you know, that you have to do, and this is your job. So, what you want to do is differentiate from your competitors. this will entice you to review more to find out how do you do that?

Lindsay: Right.

Pete: And the third thing I talked about this; the cover letter can’t turn off the reviewer. Your cover letter might say nothing

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: Or they saw something wrong. Or you have those famous typos? And is there anybody who ever submit a proposal that didn’t have a typo go back and read your last proposal?

Lindsay: Oh yeah. that’s so heart-wrenching, when you go back and read a proposal and you’re like, oh my gosh, how did I miss this?

Pete: Yeah, that’s really it. but you often as a time crunch with a proposal and a proposal is submitted without final proof. here’s an example, and this is really embarrassing to me and my marketing team. We put together what we thought was a good proposal for a library, large library. it did not get a final proof after all parts were complete and were submitted.

Pete: At the interview at the library and on the committee had about 10 yellow sticky tabs sticking out the hard copy proposal. My boss, our CEO saw them and ask, what are those? She responded with typos and other communication errors she found

Lindsay: the librarian.

Pete: And yeah. yes, I heard about that, but I had the best boss in the world. He said, I know you guys were against the wall and just, you know, be a little more careful, which it was my best boss ever. and the other thing, as many cover letters are telling and not selling. I’m sure you said that on another broadcast. we did this and we did that, but what problems did you solve and how is that relevant to their project or you are using what I call worthless words that had nothing to your case.

Pete: We are client-oriented. Incorporate creative design. We’re architectural specialists. And the number one that I hate the most and find in most, we are unique. unique compared to what?

Pete: I want to read a cover letter

Pete: here

Lindsay: Yeah. I’m waiting to hear this. You told me that you are going to read one and I think the listeners are going to really like this.

Pete: Yeah, I should tell you that when I do one of these Lindsay and I were just talking before when I review an RFP, I go through and review it pretty quickly and I go back, and I highlight it with a highlighter. Then I go back, and I underlined things. And what you’re going to find is you are probably the only one that reviews one in detail. And I can tell you the project people are going to miss the things you’re saying, let me read this. This is an actual letter that someone asked me to review for a city school project.

Lindsay: Okay.

Pete: XYZ firm is pleased to present the statement of qualifications for your consideration.

Pete: People don’t care if you’re pleased, you know, I mean, uh, we have collaborated with many districts to achieve tremendous success. What does that mean? Tremendous success. And how is that any different than what another firm would say? We have found the key to success is the ability to see the big picture. Oh, I love the big picture you probably do too. I laughed when I read this, I couldn’t believe this was the worst one. We worked in partnership with districts to understand both their goals and their community to develop a long-term vision for facilities. prioritizing immediate and future educational needs along with developing accurate cost estimates. Does anybody not want to put together accurate cost estimates? Uh, we’re here to be your partner, a principle that planners and designers should value people. Value people. Do you have to tell me you value people? Creative individuals we hire come first. Since passionate about education, facility design, and believe that students are empowered through a positive educational experience. We’re bettering the community as a whole. I guess I’m going to stop here. The capacity to reform workload allows the proposed team. And we’re going to partner with you throughout the process. that terrible or what?

Pete: what

Lindsay: And that probably sounds about like every cover letter

Pete: Yeah.

Lindsay: I’ve almost ever, ever read.

Lindsay: Um,

Pete: here hearing that, Lindsay, what do you come away with on this firm?

Lindsay: nothing really, that, that they’ve, that they’ve done school design before.

Pete: Yeah,

Lindsay: of what I got.

Pete: it may be that you went to a public speaking thing for somebody who just doesn’t know how to speak. And I teach that too because that’s oh my God. terrible.

Lindsay: Yeah, that could be a whole other episode. Public speaking.

Pete: Yeah. I mean, it really could be,

Lindsay: So, so you gave us an example of kind of a bad, and I’m sure the listeners are in their car or on their walk and they’re raising their hands and they’re like, that’s our cover letter. just change the client type in the project type. So is your process, or how do you consult with firms to ensure that their cover letters are standing out and entice the selection committee to keep reading the proposal?

Pete: Well, go through and I look at these and the first thing that I want to see is you do not write a cover letter starting out with, we are this, or we are pleased or some other junk. You start writing about them. You catch their attention. Now, just think of yourself, sitting there and you’re reading 30 proposals on your through the ninth one, and you have another drink of coffee and say my God, when’s this going to end?

Pete: So, you know, you go through all that and you want to catch your attention. The way you catch the attention of people if you write about them. I, I have, uh, an example here of one firm I help with, and I quickly sampled. Yeah, which was an engineering firm was going after a structural assessment of a major university football stadium.

Lindsay: Okay.

Pete: They suggested that they start with a statement about the project. I found information with a little research. Maybe you can pat the back of them. And here’s what it is. According to Mel Kiper. If you don’t know who he is, he said noted NCA sports reviewer. The memorial stadium is one of the most historic and important structures in the nation. That’s true. I looked that up. Our team of structural engineers with large steel structures experience wants to work with you to assess and recommend measures that assures will serve the university for many years to come. That my friend will wake somebody up.

Lindsay: Yeah. And notable name drop, Mel Kiper. Yeah. Yeah. The memorial stadium is historic. Yeah. So, you start with them.

Pete: Yeah. And we’re, you know, we’re not, we’re not proud to propose that we’ve done this, and we’ve done that. That’s not, especially if they’re reviewing that proposal. And, you know, I’ve talked before about three bullets and proof. Uh, very quickly explain that, start with the intro, with your three bullets, use bullets, keep it short. Two sentences. there are three points that differentiate our firm from other firms. Then, I wrote one of them. This is a little bit longer. I don’t like to see more than one or two sentences. So. But, in that proposal, we know the university, our firm has completed over 30 projects in the last 20 years. we understand the processes and procedures that have helped us maintain the cost budget and schedule for every project. And your project manager and our project manager have worked together many times and know each other well. And so, you know, you’re really hitting right at them and talking about.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: Yeah, and for me, that’s three sentences. That’s too long. I would work to make that even shorter. So, to take something and make it shorter is very difficult. If any of you had something at five pages and have to be only three, that’s hard. That’s hard. So, I call that my middle item at what you do is explain why. And then, in the end, people have trouble. You know, they write all this stuff. What did these people right? Let me see. We respectfully submit this document as a snapshot of our credentials. Should you have any questions or if we can provide any additional information, please contact me at my office or mobile phone. So, what I like to do is have a reference. And recommend you only use one reference. It’s a good chance the reader may call him, especially if he knows him. I suggest you call the reference first and tell him someone from their prospect may be calling you. And I hope you can speak to him when he calls about the firm. Do you have trouble getting calls back when you call about a project or something? Yeah, me too. If you think you need to then go ahead, but I think you only need one. and here’s an example that turned out bad I had an engineering firm that always provided 20 references.

Lindsay: gosh.

Pete: Again, more is better than throwing mud against the wall. And one of the references, they called someone called all the references. They had a, you know, an assistant or somebody who called these references, they did. Said they would never use the firm, even if they were the last firm on earth. Do you think they got to the shortlist? I don’t think so.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: And evidently something happened recently, and they just kept putting that same thing out there. So, for further reference, make it really easy for them. Put their name, title, organization, phone number, and email. And you may say what they worked on with you. Okay. Then the summary is another tough one. You want a one-liner. We could start tomorrow by assigning our staff that you know, and they know how to operate assuring your budget and schedule are met. So, there are three things that every owner wants. He wants to think on time, on budget. And a good project that works well. And if you can keep that in your brain, that will really help. I know when I was an owner, those are the three things, and I was a project manager

Pete: So, signing is the last thing I’ll mention. There’s a lot of stuff here, and I hope you get a few things out of it, or at least you question yourself in these things. And I like to have the PM side. And as I said before, most people think the PM is the most important person and some think that the principal signing means that firm takes ownership and that’s good too. And I also think some people think they work on the project, you know, they, the owners don’t think that,

Lindsay: Um,

Pete: I’ve tried to do that with my boss who was sat on every design committee there was. I said, well, why don’t you do something else with your time? Like more marketing. He says that’s what I got into this industry what I do this for. So, here’s what I’m going to suggest is have your PM sign first principal sign second. That way the PM knows what’s being submitted and they recognize the name right away. They may not recognize the principal. They may have never met him. So anyway.

Lindsay: Yeah, that’s good advice. Yeah. Cause we always have that debate, like who should sign?

Lindsay: and so that’s kind of some good guidance

Pete: yeah,

Lindsay: making sure the project manager signs, but then it’s, it’s not bad to have the principal. It’d be a second signer.

Pete: Well, tell him that an owner, a former owner who sat through probably a hundred interviews, agrees with that also he’s the trainer. So, let’s take it from here.

Lindsay: So, can I recap that

Pete: Yes, you can certainly recap it.

Lindsay: Yeah. So, then let me know if I get it wrong. Cause I was taking notes along the way. So first you want to start out the cover letter talking or writing about them. The client, you want to have part of that. Maybe a paragraph is like a sentence or two of your points of differentiation

Pete: Yes.

Lindsay: and then explain why. And then,

Pete: In three bullets

Pete: in three bullets.

Lindsay: Yep. I love bullets. Cause they’re scannable. People scan. They don’t read the details of bullets. I love bullets.

Pete: And I would say whenever you’re writing use bullets, it’s much better.

Lindsay: And then, you want to end with a reference, and a summary one-liner and then signing, make sure the project managers one of the signatories. The project manager’s name.

Pete: Absolutely the project manager with like signing it too. I can tell you that

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. So, Did I get it right?

Lindsay: I took

Pete: You got it. exactly right.

Lindsay: I love it. I love it. can we say that we can abolish the sentence? We are excited to submit.

Pete: Oh my God.

Lindsay: Like, just don’t have that sentence in any cover letter from this day forward.

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. If you ask any marketing trainer in the world like me, they will all tell you the same thing. Cause every time we get together, we laugh about how crazy people can start these things that make no sense.

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. So, I love it. Well, this has been great. I love the examples of everybody always wants examples when I talk to marketers and I know we’re on audio today, so you guys can’t see these examples, but it may be, I’ll put some in the show notes, some of the writing, Pete gave us today. Pete, was there anything else on cover letters before we get to our rapid-fire questions?

Pete: Well, I don’t think I said this, but you don’t want to write that cover letter until you just about have it all reviewed. Now you’re never going to have the proposal tremendously ready to go because it’s going to be time to submit.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: Maybe do a, a rough of the cover letter and to go back and do it, and then all those points there, but it gets you, you know, sit with your boss or simply call people and melt it down to three. So, we only need three here. Tell me what the most important three are and then that’ll help, but that’s, that’s probably the biggest things.

Lindsay: that’s a good point. So, I kind of wait until the end of the proposal process to draft it and finalize the cover letter.

Pete: Yep. Yes.

Lindsay: Awesome. Okay. So, are you ready for the rapid-fire questions?

Pete: I am ready.

Lindsay: Okay, let’s go. So, question number one. What is your number one piece of advice for marketers who are new to the AEC industry?

Pete: The number one is to get all the education and training you can in our industry for your job for marketing, that’s the number one. And I say that because, uh, you know, being a manager of a number of marketing departments, I know that the training dollars go to design staff more than anybody else it’s because they know them better. and mostly are teaching PM skills because I didn’t get trained like that in school. It’s just terrible. So, for you, you need to in-house market for more money. And then you got to tell them how it’s going to help the firms save time or money or make more sales. You gotta have the thing behind it. Cause we’re talking dollars here.

Pete: It’s hard to get money out of a firm. They just think, you know, marketing and sales, you know, you just write proposals. I heard that one time. You just write proposals. No, no, no. We do much more. We make proposals that are, that have a good ending. So, but that’s it. I want to see more education and training.

Lindsay: Love it. Love it. Question number two. What has been your favorite or most memorable win?

Pete: I worked with a small architectural firm, and they were going after a 190 million medical nursing and public health complex for the university.

Lindsay: Wow.

Pete: They wanted to go for the architect of record. Only four top local firms in the state were on the list. They had all worked with the owner. You know, it’s hard to say we worked with the owner. Well, everybody had. We’ve put together what differentiates the firm. And then we took when we did the interview, we reduced the PowerPoint. Do you ever see these guys put together a PowerPoint presentation for 45 minutes and only have 20?

Lindsay: Wow. no. no.

Pete: As you take presentation, I was like pulling out their appendix, you know,

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Pete: a lot of times too many pictures. And I had one that had all these projects in there and he says, okay, we can take it out. Let’s put it down to the bottom if we want to use it again. I can’t believe what these guys did. They need fewer pics. I had eight, eight pictures on one slide. How in the heck can you narrow that?

Pete: Now here’s one that you can do that really helps. And I always do this. I learned this many years ago. Makeup hats, which are things folded over. I think you know what they are Lindsey with people’s names on them. And then when you come in and stick them in front of them, so you know, all their names and you can dress them by name in the question period. the one thing that people like to hear more than anything else in the world is their name. A pastor told me that. So, it must be true, you know. And engineers liked to take up all the sessions with their jargon. You know, this committee here had only one engineer on it and for professional non-design people, I clammed on those engineers. I said, hey, look, we know what you do, and tell something good that happened from it. So anyway,

Lindsay: Yeah. Relatable.

Pete: Yeah, I did that recently and they wrote me a beautiful, thank you. Note, letter reference. And, you know, I, if I could, they had a big, party after they invited me down and I got to be there. So, I just, it’s just one of those things. It’s such a nice. firm.

Lindsay: Yeah. I love it. I love it. Okay. Question number three. What are you excited about?

Pete: Well, that’s easy right now in my life. I am getting married again on June 25th

Lindsay: Oh, wow. Congratulations.

Pete: and my fiancé is into that. Well, what are we going to do? And she doesn’t want it. Like it’s the first wedding. She wants to call it an open house as opposed to a wedding reception. And she stayed awake three nights. Thinking about telling me that so

Lindsay: Oh, gosh.

Pete: women are different than

Pete: men.

Lindsay: Yeah.

Pete: And then for a honeymoon, we’ve set up a Viking cruise to Paris and Normandy,

Lindsay: Oh, beautiful.

Pete: will happen a month after. And then I just have that in one more thing. I bought a pontoon boat last year, and that has been so much.

Lindsay: Oh yeah.

Pete: She calls it a pleasure boat and I call it a fishing boat. So, we look forward to all summer and people love to go out on these things. We invite people and we take all kinds of people out, just go out in the cruise. You’re not supposed to have drinks on those things if you’re in a state park, but we do anyway. I don’t think they stopped it. So anyway, that’s my summer. I’m having a

Lindsay: that sounds like an amazing summer. Congratulations

Pete: thank you.

Lindsay: That’s so exciting. And then the last question from me today is how can people get in touch with you? if they want to learn more or they need some marketing or business development services, especially with help with their cover letters, how can they get in touch with

Pete: Yeah. Yeah. Well, uh, it’s easy to just probably to get me, at my email, which is Pete P E T E at Kienle it’s my name communications.com. Also, you can text me, I’m like the younger people now, I do text. my son tells me don’t call me, just text me. I mean, it’s just ridiculous, but my text, which is my phone number (919) 747-1877 again, 9 1 9 7 4 7 1 8 7 7. If you ever do a phone call to a prospect, be sure to say your name twice and your telephone number twice.

Lindsay: Yes.

Pete: I, those haven’t got me. And I also, you know, I’m an SMPS member. You can go on the SMPS site under members and get lots of information on me. So anyway, that’s what I do, but yeah, I would love to, I consult in the area of, uh, proposals, business development, and interviews, and I love doing all three.

Lindsay: Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for coming to the show today and sharing all of your knowledge with us about cover letters.

Pete: Yes. Lindsay, Thank you so much. And I hope everybody got some items out of this they could use. And I know you could use it tomorrow.

Lindsay: Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Well, what a great interview. Pete had such great advice.  He has so many years of experience on the owner’s side, reviewing proposals, and then, on the firm’s side, preparing proposals, managing proposal coordinators, and now as a consultant, helping AEC firms throughout the country win amazing work.

And so, I want to thank Pete again for sharing his, just all of his wisdom, specifically about cover letters. So hopefully you realize how important your cover letters are for your proposals, and you’ll use his framework to Improve your cover letters. And this is something you could do today on the proposal you’re working on right now.

So just to recap, the framework. Don’t start your cover letter with I’m excited to submit or we’re excited to submit or We’re pleased to submit. Start with writing about them, the client, the project, the issues. And then have your three points of differentiation and use actual bullet points. Explain why those differentiation matter.

And then towards the end, you want to add, one reference with their name, their job, title, their phone number, their email, and what you worked with them on. But make sure to verify that reference. And then a summary one-liner just to kind of wrap it all up and then have your project managers sign it.

You can also add your principal too if you want to. So, for more information about how to contact Pete, to get some of the visuals of some of the samples he gave us, visit the show notes page marketers take flight.com forward slash 57. And all of that will be in the show notes. Okay. And until next time, my friend bye for now.